Ali Abbasi, the Iranian-Danish director of the Donald Trump origin story The Apprentice, says being outside American politics allowed him to make a fair and humanizing portrayal of Trump’s early years as a businessman and his friendship with lawyer Roy Cohn.
“For me, it’s dangerous not to humanize people. You know what I mean? That is, in a way, the origin of all sorts of political errors, ” Abbasi tells MovieMaker. “Trying to skew — that’s exactly what I think we should not do.”
But that doesn’t mean Abbasi supports Trump.
“Look, do I agree with a lot of things Mr. Trump has done as president? No, absolutely not. But there are two things here. A., as filmmaker, it’s not my job to judge him and his political record. B., the movie is not really about Donald Trump the president,” says Abbasi, perhaps best known for the 2022 Iranian crime thriller Holy Spider.
He said the film is “not even a Trump movie as such,” because it’s about the dynamic between Trump and Cohn, the anti-communist prosecutor-turned-political fixer.
“It’s about that relationship, and it’s about that world — ’70s, ’80s New York. Also, in a way, it’s a look into the machine room of American political power and how it works, and how they manipulate it and use it.”
The Apprentice screenplay was written by Vanity Fair and New York Magazine journalist Gabriel Sherman, who also wrote the The Loudest Voice in the Room, the book about former Fox News CEO Roger Ailes that was adapted into The Loudest Voice starring Russell Crowe.
The Apprentice stars Sebastian Stan as young Trump opposite Succession star Jeremy Strong as Roy Cohn, Trump’s former lawyer. Cohn, who died of AIDS in the 1986, was known for working with Sen. Joseph McCarthy on his anti-communist hearings in the early 1950s, and he successfully prosecuted Julius and Ethel Rosenbergs for espionage, leading to their execution in 1953.
Also Read: Donald Trump’s 5 Favorite Movies
The film has received lots of press attention for a scene in which Trump sexually assaults his first wife, Ivana, played by Borat: Subsequent Moviefilm star Maria Bakalova. Former President Trump, who has denied any wrongdoing and is now running again for president after losing the 2020 election, had his lawyer send a cease and desist letter to the filmmakers when The Apprentice played at Cannes in May.
The film arrives in theaters Friday after a long and complicated journey to securing a distribution deal.
We talked with Abbasi about the much-discussed sexual assault scene; feeling like Borat; and why not being American was an advantage for him as a filmmaker.
Director Ali Abbasi on Making Trump Origin Story The Apprentice
MovieMaker: There’s obviously been a lot of talk about when this movie will come out. Now that it’s coming out before the election, do you think it’s possible for this movie to impact Trump’s campaign?
Ali Abbasi: We’re not in the business of changing people’s minds and telling them how to vote. This is first and foremost an experience. And I feel I’m quite happy with the experience we crafted. It’s a ride, and it has the punk rock DNA, just like its characters. I think that whatever you get from the movie, we have some interesting insights into Mr. Trump’s character and how he became the person we know him as today.
Now, how do you use those insights? It’s up to you. But if you’re interested in getting to know him better and how he became the person he is, I think we can go, “come to us.”
The Apprentice Director Ali Abbasi on the Accuracy of His Donald Trump and Roy Cohn Portrayals
Moviemaker: There’s a scene where Trump gets liposuction on his stomach and a scalp reduction to hide his hair loss. Was that based on actual evidence?
Ali Abassi: Have I seen the medical records of where Mr. Trump was doing the procedure? No. But from the sources I’ve seen, a lot of this research was done vigorously by Gabe and checked and fact checked. And this is someone who is sort of in the business of fact checking. So, even stuff like the fake cufflinks that Donald gives to Roy on his birthday. That is an actual — that happened.
Now, does that make the movie better and make it more accurate? I think it’s important to respect objectivity and historical facts. But I think the most interesting thing here is not what happened to him and what did not happened to him, which you can read maybe on Wikipedia — but to experience, to sort of see the world through his perspective and experience how it is to be him and to see the complexity of him and Roy Cohn and Ivana.
These are larger than life, super colorful characters in a very colorful universe. That is where my heart is as filmmaker.
Moviemaker: About the cufflinks scene. I’ve seen the New York Times report in which Cohn’s ex-lover said that they were fake. But is there any evidence that Roy Cohen actually knew they were fake while he was alive?
Ali Abbasi: I don’t know. But I’m also thinking these are very, very intelligent people. Roy, he’s no stranger to luxury. Now, in the movie, we wanted to dramatize it. The way it’s revealed is through Ivana. But I don’t think Roy necessarily needed Ivana to tell him what’s a fake diamond and what’s not. This is a guy who has been living in luxury. So I can just imagine that it wouldn’t be very difficult for him to know.
But I just generally have this sense that even though their relationship cooled towards the end of Cohn’s life, for the simple matter that I don’t think Trump really needed him anymore, I still think there was a sort of friendship. And I think that that’s where the complexity of these people is. It’s a little bit like the love story in The People vs. Larry Flynt, between Courtney Love and Woody Harrelson [who played Althea and Larry Flynt, respectively].
They’re not maybe lovable people, but their love for each other is still real. They’re flawed people, but still, there is some sort of loyalty and friendship. There’s also a scenario where he knew, but he was like, “Well, whatever. Who cares? You know, I’m dying anyways. He gave me fake diamonds. I would have done the same.”
Moviemaker: How accurate do you think this movie is to who these people are at their core? Do you think you got Trump right?
Ali Abassi: I think almost everyone else has got him wrong, you know, because almost everyone else has tried to demonize him, tried to mock him… I don’t feel like Roy Cohn is close to the character in Angels in America either.
I think that’s an excellent play and all that, but in terms of accuracy, I don’t think that’s very accurate. Maybe it’s accurate in the spirit of it. So I think there’s a lot of complexity, contradiction and ambivalence about these characters and that’s usually also something in the American tradition of biopics. You sort of flatten things out. It’s about important people doing important things, the big defeats and the big victories. And that’s not how life is.
That’s certainly not these people’s lives. Mr. Trump could be — he was a Democrat, then he became a Republican. He was pro-life, and he was like, anti whatever. And then he published an ad to hang the Central Park Five… it’s not that black and white. And I think that is really the point of the movie, that it takes it out of this liberal versus conservative, bad versus good. The reality is gray. Now, did we capture all the greatness and with the 50 shades of gray there? We tried, but I think we got closer than anyone else.
Moviemaker: Why was it important for you to include the scene where Trump rapes Ivana?
Ali Abbasi: For maintaining fairness and accuracy. Some of my liberal friends were saying, during when we were working on the script, I had a few people read it, and they were like, “Oh, this is just Trump doing Trump things. You should be harsher on him. Why do you have him being so smart and driven in the beginning of the movie and see that he’s actually a successful businessman? He’s lousy and he’s fake.” I’m like, no, actually, as much as I know in terms of historical accuracy, his investment in New York early on was pretty genius and and pretty deft, and all that.
The same logic goes for that point. That is a point in his life. Our source is Ivana’s own deposition under oath with fear of perjury and all that. I know it’s complicated, and I know she tried to deny that, but even then added that description in her memoir, she added a little disclaimer at the end of it. For me, it’s clear that it happened. And when it happened, I think that for me, the important thing is not that, “Oh, he raped his wife.” That is not the most important thing. In terms of character, this is a character who crosses that boundary now for himself, and I think that’s an important story point. So yes, that’s why it should be included.
Moviemaker: How do you deal with the fact that some people will just never believe anything bad about Trump? No matter how much research you do, some people just won’t care?
Ali Abbasi: You can also say some people would not even see anything bad in the movie about him. It’s like, “Oh, he treated his his wife like shit, yeah, because she didn’t respect him enough. And that’s cool if you’re a real man.” Or, “He tried to trick people and got what he wanted. Well, you gotta hustle.”
I mean, depending on who you ask. But again, it’s not my job to — if I start thinking about what Trump supporters and Trump haters and pundits and whatnot think about this and that, then I won’t have a movie, you know? Then every week, I have to invite a new group of people in the editing room.
And maybe that’s really what my advantage is. I don’t own property anywhere in the U.S. I don’t have, like, any political, financial gain from one way or the other. So I see this as a story with characters, with dramaturgical and sometimes maybe anthropological interest. I do what I think is right for the story. So hopefully everyone will be happy.
MovieMaker: As someone who is not an American that doesn’t have necessarily a dog in this fight, why did you want to tell the story?
Ali Abbasi: One of the reasons is exactly because of the reason you just mentioned, because I don’t have a dog in the fight and because that, I think, would allow me to see this without any political interest and without trying to skew it one way or the other. And also, you know, I am born and raised in Iran. And we, we have been, before our revolution in 1979, we were an American colony, and then we turned into an enemy of America in a way. Either way, America has a very long shadow on Iran, culturally, politically and all that. And it’s not surprising that I’ve always been interested in U.S. politics. I’ve followed it closely. I do understand the frustration of a lot of people politically in the U.S. I do understand where the MAGA movement comes from.
Moviemaker: You had said in another interview that you would be happy to sit down with Trump and discuss the movie if he wanted to. Do you still feel that way?
Ali Abbasi: I would very much feel that way. Because I do have respect for him as a human being, even if I don’t agree with his positions. Also, I’m fascinated. I want to know how the person who’s part of this life story we’re narrating feels about this. I think it would be totally fair if he likes or dislikes it or whatever, but that would be, as an artist and filmmaker, exciting for me.
Moviemaker: Why do you think it was so such a complex journey to get distribution for this movie?
Ali Abbasi: Sometimes I feel a little bit like Borat. I come here. I was like, “What’s wrong? I made a movie. It’s nuanced. It’s a humanist approach. There are complex characters. It’s fun, it’s entertaining. There’s great music.” And everyone’s like, “No, it’s too hot. What if he sues? We don’t want to lose all the MAGA people.”
I don’t know. Honestly, I got surprised. I’m still shocked that it was so difficult for us to find distribution. Is it because of the state of affairs in cinema right now, that people don’t want to take a risk? Is it because of Mr. Trump himself?
We genuinely had no idea if we could show the movie or not, even some weeks ago… I genuinely hope that we can prove to people and the more corporate side of Hollywood that you can bet on content that is exciting and taking risks and breaking norms, and you can still be rewarded by the audience.
MovieMaker: I know there were some legal threats from Trump earlier on. Have those stopped, or is he still threatening legal action against you?
Ali Abbasi: When we were in Cannes, we got a cease and desist letter from his lawyers. It was written very much in this sort of campaign style language of like, “You’re trying to interfere in U.S. elections and getting paid by foreign governments.” It wasn’t really addressed to me. In a way, it was addressed to his own base, I think. And it wasn’t really about the movie either, because there was no evidence they actually saw the movie.
Now, I genuinely hope — because he is a big part of the movie, his story, or his story when he was young, at least — I would love to know what he thinks of it, and I would love to show it to him, as I’ve said many times. How they’re going to react, it remains to be seen. But I also think Mr. Trump seems to be pretty busy nowadays, so I think he has bigger fish to fry.
MovieMaker: So you don’t know if Trump seen the movie now?
Ali Abbasi: Well, I have a feeling that if he saw it, I would know.
Moviemaker: Yeah, he’d be posting on Truth Social about it.
Ali Abbasi: “The crazy Ali Abbasi from Iran is sad.” I can already see it, I can already hear it.
The Apprentice arrives in theaters on Friday from Briarcliff Entertainment.
Main Image: Sebastian Stan as Donald Trump in The Apprentice.